Adrenosterone (11-OXO)
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Also known as: Androst-4-ene-3,11,17-trione/11-Keto-Androstenetrione/11-Keto-androstenedione
CAS # 382-45-6
Molar Mass: 303.9
Don't know much at all about Structure Activity Relations tbh, but because it's an androgen, we'll find out soon if it shows any pheromone behavior.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dta.108/abstract :
Adrenosterone (androst-4-ene-3,11,17-trione, 11-oxoandrostenedione) is an endogenous steroid hormone that has been promoted as a dietary supplement capable of reducing body fat and increasing muscle mass. It is proposed that adrenosterone may function as an inhibitor of the 11β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 enzyme (11β-HSD1), which is primarily responsible for reactivation of cortisol from cortisone . The urinary metabolism of adrenosterone was investigated, after a single oral administration in two male subjects, by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry (GC-MS) and gas chromatography-combustion-isotope ratio mass spectrometry (GC-C-IRMS). Substantially increased excretion of 11β-hydroxyandrosterone, 11β-hydroxyetiocholanolone, 11-oxoandrosterone and 11-oxoetiocholanolone was observed. Minor metabolites such as 3α,17β-dihydroxy-5β-androstan-11-one, 3α-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-11,17-dione and 3α,11β-dihydroxyandrost-4-en-17-one were also identified.
There two ways this molecule is being used.
1: Apply it at mcg or ng and see if it shows any pheromone behavior then eventually, find what it can be paired with.
2: If it shows no pheromone activity, it may just be used as a topical if you're applying high amounts of Androstadienone.
Kmacc is the only person I've known so far to have used this so far.
With a lifetime supply of this, I'd be more than happy to let anyone with a good history of testing/reporting, have a few hundred mg's to experiment with.
Who wants in?
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It looks like this stuff might conflict with androstadienone pheromonally if it inhibits 11B-HSD. Which I assume is what you were getting at? I think I had that issue with 7-Keto DHEA, which also inhibits 11B-HSD. I wonder if the 11B-HSD inhibitors (this and 7-Keto) could be used pheromonally to reverse depression in certain men who overconverted cortisol. If someone wanted to do that.
Alternately;
I've never really figured out how to properly use 7-keto since losing the effectiveness of androstadienone is always too hard a hit to a mix. Maybe 7-Keto or this is more of a "2nd stage" sort of mone. I tend to strongly prefer socials. So maybe this could be used in a similar fashion- start with an androstadienone heavy mix during the day and then lock that cortisol gate with a molecule like this, giving a person both the benefit of androstadienone and also whatever benefits this molecule might impart.
Or it could do something totally unexpected. I'm speculating.
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I think I have some of this from @kmacc that hasn't been concocted yet...
To speculate wildly from its action on cortisol-cortisone conversion, it'll may either signal a lack of stress (alpha/relaxed), or on the flip side it may signal deficiency in stress coping (=beta/withdrawn or defeated -- if the molecule calls for increased stress response similar to how TSH signals for more thyroid hormones when levels get low. So the function of this may come down to whether its primary mechanism is direct or as feedback. -
Now that I recall, you're both right. I remember a while back towards the end of last year, I was using 7 keto (acetate) topical lotion and it ended up clashing with Cohesion on later during the night. I remember my body just heating up (yeah, you can see how this ends up later....) and whatever pheromone metabolites the 7-keto converts to....it was offputting to a majority of people. It's a possibility that 7-keto levels in a person conveys overall immune and stress status of a person?
@Logos Sending you some, today/thursday. -
Thanks Minh. Though honestly, even if I had a cap of this stuff it'd be fairly low down on my list for testing. I think I'm going to be testing other stuff (like androstenetrione, or delta none, which I have a mix of and which seems relaxing or at least which might have diminished some of the negative day-after effects of androstadienone, and then maybe back to 5HTP to figure out dosage and interactions ) first. Then some kind of grape extract (would be a nice readily-available source of an aromatase inhibitor, on the off chance it actually worked as a mone. Do we have any reports on any aromatase inhibitors as pheromones yet?)
I haven't figured out how the 11-HSB inhibitors should be used yet. And of that group 7-Keto seems like a better choice for a topical since it's less likely to convert to other stuff in the body and is readily available. (I think... correct me if I'm wrong there) And it's also being used commercially, which means more assistance in terms of figuring out all the interactions of the molecule. I have some 7-Keto on hand. I've been thinking through dbot's earlier comment that it could be used to enhance other mones. To the extent that a person has a certain amount of endogenous steroids to 'spend' on one outcome or another, maybe 7-Keto or adrenosterone could enhance the effects of EST, say, or DHEAS or neno and make it hit harder by preventing unwanted conversion to cortisol. Androstadienone does seem to have a sort of anti-sexual pro-snuggly effect... So maybe to get the 11-HSB inhibitors to work I need to focus on a non-androstadienone based mix?
So far, all the sulfated steroid versions of usable molecules except for neno sulfate seem to work wonderfully. And the issue with neno sulfate seemed to be that it was an irritant, not that it didn't work. Just a thought about future testing agendas.
All of this stuff is wild speculation based on just a tiny bit of knowledge, of course. Just thinking out loud. Caveat emptor. -
No problem at all man. We have to plant the seeds somewhere even if it's speculation or great hypothesis. It'd be great for all of us to run a simultaneous experiment one day though :) .
What do you mean when you say irritant?
If you're saying what I think you meant, I might have noticed something similar along those lines when I used GABA. Might of been a shorter tolerance or disinhibition effect along those lines. -
I didn't test neno sulfate myself and I'm going from memory. But the results from testing that Chris did seemed to be that people didn't want to use it because it was physically, (not psychologically) irritating.
For what it's worth, I think I'm allergic to GABA when taken orally. (anxiety, and some weird feelings in my hands, if I remember correctly. It was years ago) but didn't notice any effect from it pheromonally. I only tried it once as a phero for self effects and never in a social environment. A lot of stuff doesn't work at all if the dosage is wrong, though. But it was interesting that someone who was allergic to it orally wasn't allergic to it pheromonally. I have some on hand, actually, somewhere. In any case, my results for GABA stuff might be atypical. -
Androstenetrione is supposed to be a pretty powerful aromatase inhibitor when taken orally, and as a pheromone it makes me moody as hell. Maybe a paradoxical feedback effect?
7-keto does seem to have an additive effect on certain mones -- the "fizzy" effect. It's somewhat unpredictable to me so far as to which mones are complemented well. Your cortisol (or was it cortisone?) preservation theory could explain the effect. -
Interesting. Moody in what way? Were you aggressive? Depressed?
So androstenetrione (different than the stuff mentioned in the head of this post) is an irreversible inhibitor of aromatase. I wonder how long the effect will last, then? Also, I can't find anything that tells me which receptor sites it might activate or block. A bit of a shadowy molecule, this one...
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Etrione makes me feel sort of weepy -- in the way one feels weepy when looking upon a tragic but beautiful work of art.
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