7-Keto DHEA
-
7-keto DHEA is sold and used as an anti-aging and weight loss supplement. There is very little history of its use as a pheromone molecule. However, a couple of testers have reported significant social effects from the use of this molecule in a fragrance preparation.
- Most common chemical name: 5-androstene-3b-ol-7,17-dione
- It is also referred to as:
- 7-keto
- 7-hydroxydehydroepiandrosterone
- 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone
- CAS Number: 566-19-8
- Molecular weight: 302.41
Endogenous Effects
Unlike DHEA, 7-Keto DHEA does not antagonize (or weakly activate) the androgen receptor.Summary of Reported Pheromone Effects
This molecule needs to be tested by more people before the results can be considered reliable. Below are the results mentioned by testers to date:- Increased social activity
- Mood elevation
- Reduced effort in attending to peripheral data
- "Fizzy lifting drink" - adding lightness and zest
- "Naturalizing quality" - increased sense of automaticity
Where to buy 7-Keto DHEA
- This molecule is not currently sold as a pheromone. You'll have to make your own!
-
7-Keto DHEA as a Pheromone at 25mcg
There is definitely something pro-social about 7-keto DHEA.
I was feeling sick and miserable, and the mood in the office was kind of quiet and detached. Within 5 minutes of spraying on the 7-keto (DIY, dissolved from supplements in FCO, in an ethanol solution fixed with FCO and monolaurin, and scented with a couple drops of light EO), people had gathered around the main office and were laughing together. Good hit!
After that I noticed some difference in my interaction with clients, but the difference was difficult to put my finger on. Something like decreased self-consciousness, maybe. The conversations seemed somehow more genuine without really trying. Not quite like either of the nols, but I could see 7-keto pairing nicely with either of them.
This one needs more testing. I haven't fully got a handle on it. -
7-Keto does something, but I can’t figure out what
I've been testing 7-keto all week at doses ranging from 12.5-50mcg, and I feel like for sure it's doing something. But for the life of me I can't put my finger on what that something might be.
Self-effect tests have been ambiguous. The other night I sprayed some onto a paper towel and held it to my nose for about 20 minutes while going about my business. The feeling is distinct, and matched up with my previous self-effect tests, but it's not exactly a feeling I have vocabulary for. And I don't really know what it means or might be useful for. It's a kind of a light energy that comes over me, a bit young and fresh. There's also a reduction in peripheral awareness and/or effort put into sorting out peripheral data. When worn in public I notice a bit more self-absorption than usual.
Social effects do seem to be present, but are tough to pin down. People seem to be generally a bit more polite with me while wearing 7-keto, but at the same time it feels like I'm noticed a bit less. It sort of feels like being a commercial airline pilot at the beginning or end of the flight as the passengers walk by -- each one giving you a cursory look because it's an interesting thing that you're about to fly the plane, but they're all really too wrapped up in getting on or off the plane to really consider how your day is going.
The effects have so far been most pronounced at 50mcg. This is coming from one of the first batches of DIY pheromones I ever made, and is dissolved in fractionated coconut oil, so there is a good chance that potency is not optimal. I may go ahead and mix up another batch of the stuff in alcohol to see.
I'm going to try this at 100mcg to see if I can discern something more definite, and then I'll scale back to 25mcg and add a little alpha androstenol to see if I can disinhibit whatever social effects this is bringing about. -
7-Keto DHEA: Fizzy Lifting Drink
It took me a while to get a hang of 7-keto DHEA as a pheromone because its effects when used alone can be rather subtle. And yet, it was always evident to me that it was doing something, I just couldn't quite pin it down. When used in combination with other mixes, however, the effects started to make more sense.
7-Keto adds effervescence. That's the best word I can come up with to describe the effects. When you add fizz to coke, it doesn't change the flavor, but it changes the way you perceive the flavor. It adds a kind of kinesthetic zest that makes everything seem a little livelier. 7-Keto is like that. It lightens the way other things are perceived, makes them more interesting and satisfying.
For example, this morning I put on 2.5mcg of androsterone and 30mcg of epiandrosterone. A very satisfying mix that will remind most users of Instant Gentleman (actually more effective than IG, for me.) I had a surprisingly open and comfortable talk with the adorable secretary, with both of us feeling very much more at ease to say what was on our minds than normal. It was a similar situation meeting with clients. Everyone at ease, confident, comfortable. Me definitely in a leadership position but a natural leadership position, not based on intimidation. There's a kind of sophisticated wisdom to this mix all on its own.
I added 25mcgs of 7-keto to that and the mood stayed the same, but a little lighter, a little fizzier. I felt very comfortable to kick back in my chair and work on whatever I was working on. The same sophisticated vibe as before remained, but now it seems to have a bit of its own volition. Thinking and speaking and acting just happen with 7-keto DHEA. It's got a bit of a naturalizing quality that way; self-consciousness is reduced so that productivity can increase on its own.
When the dosage of 7-keto was increased by another 37.5mcg (for a total of 62.5mcg), this effect became quite a bit more pronounced, to the point where I am sitting here typing this instead of doing any work and feeling just fine about that, thanks ;)
At 62.5mcg the 7-keto's bubbliness becomes like a little party in your brain. You pay attention to it because it's awesome, but meanwhile all the normal actions that you are consciously mucking around in continue unabated, perhaps even better and more smoothly.
2.5mcg Androsterone + 30mcg epi-rone + 62.5mcg 7-keto = Fun Police?
I get the feeling a higher dose of 7-keto would become too distracting. I think 50-62.5mcg (DIY) may be the sweet spot.
Erik.jpg308 x 171 - 15K
fizzy.jpg311 x 311 - 25K -
This is a tangent, but I'm curious; how old was the adorable secretary? Any background on her personality or what else she responded well to? I'm guessing she was young if you were using androsterone. Do you find epiandrosterone to be helpful with anyone outside of women under 24 or so? As a guy, I can't figure out how to use it, except in small doses (<1mcg) as described above. Neither could Thundr. Zerosix put forward the 'small doses and younger women' notion and so far that matches my very limited experience with the molecule.
-
Also, there's some suggestion that 7-Keto-DHEA might interfere with the action of androstadienone, inhibiting the conversion of cortisone into cortisol.Furthermore, we show potent and dose-dependent inhibition of 11beta-HSD1 by 7-keto-DHEA in differentiated human THP-1 macrophages and in HEK-293 cells overexpressing 11beta-HSD1 with or without H6PDH.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19010388
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11β-hydroxysteroid_dehydrogenase_type_1
An antidote to androstadienone's effects would be useful. The androstadienone in my mixes didn't seem as potent when 7Keto was in the mix, but I'll have to do a more careful test.
-
The adorable secretary was young -- maybe 22, and a bit nerdy. She responded well to mixes with a good balance of aggression and cuddliness. She was definitely a rone girl.
I find epiandrosterone to be a pretty helpful molecule in general. I get good responses from women of all ages, and even some men. I'm surprised to hear that some people had trouble with it. What kinds of effects were you seeing?
A1 is tricky -- my understanding is that A1 increases cortisol in women but decreases it in men. But the literature is somewhat inconsistent.
I'm not sure if the study you cited tells us anything about 7-keto as a pheromone, as a dose-dependent effect in macrophages means that a substantial amount of 7-keto would need to be present systemically. This may or may not apply to its neurosteroidal effects.
I haven't noticed an interaction between 7-keto and A1, but I don't use much A1, generally. It's an interesting theory. -
I'm wondering now -- supposing 7-keto does inhibit conversion of cortisone into cortisol within the hypothalamus, what would the implications of that be? I need to look into the mood & behavioral effects of cortisone vs cortisol.
-
I got ghosting with the epi-rone, at somewhere under 20 mcg and 'bad smell' type reactions. Thundr didn't seem to like it, either, but didn't give a specific accounting of the negative effects for him. I'll re-visit it on your recommendation. Maybe my cover scent was wonky. I think I was playing with civetone at the time, which could very well have caused the issue.
-
Confusingly, 11Beta HSD Type 1, despite requiring energy (NADH) to work, can either catalyze the conversion of cortisone to cortisol or the reverse... I'm not clear on what determines the equilibrium of that reaction. I feel like I'm missing something critical here.
Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!